Irrational color?

First of all, Rich asked me to come here and contribute simultaneously with my request to him to be a part of "Rational Color." I liked the word rational based on my experiences with various forums.

I made an innocent remark stating why I don't like the values that Munsell set forth because his values need to reach beyond beyond oil pigments. Then Beth asked me to post an image of my color mixing target. Now all of a sudden I'm trying to dethrone Graydon? Isn't the point here to rationally discuss color as it relates to Munsell's color notation?

I'm not Graydon, I'm Marvin! Even though we were both schooled in the Reilly tradition we have both since moved on. Munsell is a system for communicating color. That's it baby. Graydon thinks that by matching chips you'll learn about the mechanics of color and I totally agree. Ultimately you may even be able to communicate a specific color over the phone to someone in Bombay (the whole point of Munsell BTW: universal color language.) Graydon's system seems to be something someone can do with online instruction. My method is much more effectively communicated live, with me demonstrating, in a class or workshop environment. Check my website for up and coming workshops if it sounds like fun.

I use HVC to identify what I am seeing in preparation for replicating it in pigment. Many things come into play here, the most important being what a specific color looks like in the context of my painting. When I put my color choice down I use the HVC model to adjust it accordingly, where necessary. Ultimately, I am interested in the manipulation of all the components in my painting to create a greater illusion of form, life, space and light and not really interested in copying color, be it over the phone or in front of my nose.

I'm interested in color as a component of painting and not an end in itself. Painting goes far beyond color matching but I do think Graydon's exercises are valuable for learning about color. I feel the way I teach color can also lead to color mastery although I don't use amped up full chroma colors. I use an earth based color range that replicates the color choices of my hero, William McGregor Paxton arranged according to Reilly values.

My colors are:

Flesh Painting Colors:
W&N Terra Rosa
OH Yellow Ochre Light
W&N Indian Red
W&N Ivory Black
W&N Raw Umber
Flake White

Colors to round out the palette:
OH Vermillion Extra or MH Vermillion
W&N Burnt Sienna
W&N Perm. Alizarin Crimson
W&N Viridian
W&N French Ultramarine Blue
MH Genuine Naples Yellow Light

I first choose the hue (which tube of color shall I use), adjust the value (do I make it lighter or darker than the way it comes out of the tube, and what do I add to achieve this), and then I neutralize or intensify the chroma).
Beth, you took a workshop with me five years ago and many things have evolved since then, including the colors on my palette. Scott, I've had many Scotts in my class. Which one are you?

Color Wheel ...work in progress

Here's most of my color wheel put together. Still waiting on new reds and more white.

I've used Handitak to adhere the chips to the board, so I can move them around as I make corrections. I've also taken off the smaller chips I made of the 2.5 and 7.5 cousins...just too much info. right now.

The rectangles inside the wheel are straight paint from the tubes that I've use often or have used in the past. One end is straight paint - mixed with white at the other. Black/burnt umber/raw umber and 'grey of gray' from Holbein are at the bottom right corner...don't know what to do with those yet.

The solid rectangles are all different types and brands of Naples Yellow - used a lot in the past to 'kill' chroma. Not sure what to do with those either.

My next step will be to compare my paint chips with the Munsell chips and try to guess their appropriate place. Values of the paint is throwing me off. Some are so dark, like Mars Violet or Phthalo green, or Trans. Oxide Red...that's why I added the white, so I could see where they actually fit...but that may have been a mistake.

Still trying to figure out how to record the mixes for the main chips.

(used some old press type for the lettering and numbers - but ran out!!)

Please advise.

PS: I really want to concentrate on Graydon's method of using Munsell and the practice of classical realism. I know Marvin is a wonderful painter and I look forward to his posts. Perhaps he has practical shortcuts that will be advantageous to consider later on. However, I need to know and practice what Graydon knows - that's why I joined this blog.

For Neal, with apologizes to Marvin...from a student

Neal I wish I knew where the orginials for these photos maybe hiding, I know I have them somewhere and then I could make them much easier to view.

I don't know if Scott wants to chime in here as a student like myself, but there are so many of the same things from what little I know of Graydon's system.

For students Marvin's is simple. There are no chips because he limits his skin palette to very few colors:

Mixture of titanium and flake, ivory black and raw umber for the neutral greys.

His complextion colors (again for students - no telling the magic he spins), are Yellow Ochre , Yellow Ochre light, Terra Rosa and Indian Red.


Also on your set palette or not... I think this comes once a student get's control of above, he told me often that I didn't get it and maybe below is why:

Naples yellow, burnt sienna , raw umber for neutralizing reds, ultramarine blue, vermillian hue (cadmium scarlet -gawd forbid :) - and viridain.


Outdoors he adds a cerulean blue, he also mentions a cad yellow light and permanetn alizarian Crimson.

It seems that he makes sure that the values come first and using his neutrals help contol the hue and chroma.
Now I have pretty much paraphrased a workshop sheet so I know better insight can be added.


I don't know if you can tell he isn't very found of cads! :)

I also think he has humbled himself as Graydon would. I know Marvin has spent years perfecting HIS set palette and theory, it does go back to those Art League guys, but it is soley his and he should take credit when credit is due. It is the Mattelson palette - not to be confused with the Masterson box, which I was LOL... but he will likely tell you I am confused about many things here.

:) Beth

Color mixing target

Okay, here it is. This target is slipped under a piece of plate glass, usually in a masterson palette box. The values can be matched to the "piano keys" on the bottom. This way my students can easily mix up their color strings.

In the eye of the beholder?

As I promised Richard, I will tread lightly...
Many of you might have had the great advantage of learning these things first hand, but I must apologize since I did not.

Also, I have formerly approached color theory systems from my graphics background, which is pretty much a whole other ball-game - all though I believe that Munsell was likely very involved with the creation of the Pantone Matching System for Offset and sheet fed printers.

After reading about Scott's writing to the producer of the Chart PDF and how to get it printed, it just kept playing over and over in my mind, that when you get down to learning this system - it is beyond detailed - so other than having a Richard, Marvin or Graydon holding your hand - isn't the match of color critical?

This lead me to a question, likely pertaining to graphics more, but doesn't it still apply that you are only as good as your equipment? In this case with the printing of a chart, it would include calibrated monitors, printer but most importantly the eyes of the pre-press operator. Color is in the eye of the beholder, right!

I am sure most are very familiar with this publication, but I found this piece of equipment to be really interesting, excluding the the densitometers etc for lithographers there is this simple...

"Farnsworth-Munsell 100 Hue Test", which basically tells you who you are trusting. Taking it to far? Bogus waste of time? I was just interested in your thoughts.

I will try to move my mindset to painting only.

The test is described as follows:

"This easy-to-administer test is a highly effective method for measuring an individual’s color vision. Used by governments and industry for over 40 years, the test is used to evaluate and rank color acuity. The test consists of four trays containing a total of 85 removable color reference caps (incremental hue variation) spanning the visible spectrum. Color vision aptitude is detected by the ability of the test subject to place the color caps in order of hue. "

http://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L10-315_Defining_Color_Munsell_en.pdf

Slight monkey-wrench

I have been using the Munsell color model for almost thirty years. I became aware of it when I first began to explore the possibility of trying to do painting, about ten years after leaving art school. I had been so traumatized by the lack of technical instruction at the Phila. College of Art, now called the University of the Arts, that I was absolutely convinced I'd never be able to paint.

Somehow I garnered the courage to give it a shot and while exploring what paint to buy I became intrigued with a new paint product: Liquitex Modular Colors, based on Munsell notation. Rather than standard color names these paints came labeled according to their hue, value and chroma. I started using these paints and achieved good results almost right away. It forced me to think in terms of relative values and within a year I was painting illustrated covers for Time Magazine.

About ten years after I started painting I began a decade long, once-a-week, study with John Murray, a former student of Frank Reilly's. The HVC mindset I had been utilizing meshed perfectly with the Reilly methodology since he too used Munsell as his starting point. What I really liked best about Reilly's approach was that he adapted the Munsell value range to bridge the gap between black and white pigment. This made more sense, to me, since we painters are working with pigments. Munsell used theoretical black and whites since he wanted to be able to classify color for all types of industry and not just limit his system for artistic purposes. According to MUnsell, Ivory Black is value 1.5 and Titanium White is value 9.5.

My value 5 falls halfway between black and white pigment and is a true middle value, paint-wise. Munsell value 5 falls at value 4 on my chart and is too dark resulting in compressed dark value steps.

I hope this all makes sense.

I wrote to Professor Irtel at Mannheim University to ask about the Munsell Poster Scott found in his Munsell search.
I received his reply this morning:

Dear Professor Irtel,
>
>Someone sent me a link to your Munsell Color notations poster.
>
> I am a painter here in the US (Colorado) and am presently working with the Munsell Color system in my paintings to realize more accurate color. I recently acquired the two volume set of color chips and was so excited to see this poster with all the notations on one sheet. Though I am just beginning to understand Munsell and mixing the correct hue/value/chroma with my oil paints, this could be a wonderful tool to glance at when standing at the easel.
>
>Not being very computer literate, I wonder if this poster has actually been printed or is it all computer generated?
>
>If it has been printed, is it possible to acquire several copies of this beautiful piece? I would appreciate any information you can give me.
>
>Thank you for your time and I look forward to your reply.

Sorry, it has not been printed, but you can take this file and bring it to a graphics or copy shop which is able to print A0 format from a file. A valid print, however, requires that the printing system is well calibrated. Otherwise the Munsell notations on the poster will not be valid.

Best regards,

H. Irtel


Anyone know a good printer with calibrated system?