Friday, October 12, 2007

A New Forum

I need suggestions for a new forum.

This Forum would be dedicated to using critical thinking, reason and observation, with testable results and apply them to art.
It would be invitation only and cover the following subjects

Art History
Art Criticism
Product Reviews

This would primarily be self-monitoring because anyone who values critical thinking resists personal attacks. Anything flagged as objectionable could be rewritten by its author for clarity and to eliminate any misconstrued statements.

Also, no talking too far off topic. If another's art is discussed, it will be discussed with great respect. Objections or critiques will be offered with well though out reasons as to why etc.

All ideas will be welcome as long as they are thought out. All styles will be considered as long as they are explained and are based on clear principles.

I would hope that a forum that really addresses art without the usual instability and posturing will attract professional painters and very serious students.

I like the name Art and Reason. However, Rational Color is still viable as are any number of ideas: National Art Review, Art and Critical Thinking, etc.

Please help.


ewschott said...

I think it's a wonderful idea Graydon.

For those who do not have the luxury of working from life very often. I think a chapter of translating images, either Computer or Photograph might be interesting as it applys to color, distortion (etc.) which will include anatomy.

Bill Whitaker was actually thinking about coming to my area and designing a workshop on this subject.

I love the name "Art and Reason" too.


Scott said...

So the color recipes that are posted throughout the blogs aren't lost, can we have a section where we keep them? We can post what brands helped us hit the target mixes and leave the trail for others to follow.

Good Idea?

Anneke said...

The idea of greating the new forum is great.

The name "Art and Critical Thinking" appeals most to me in regard to the ideas and ideals outlined.

It would be great to once again have a place where people of great calibre come together and discuss art on a high level. And to have the possibility to interact with them for those of us of not such high calibre(yet).
It would certainly raise the bar


kmonroe6 said...

As someone posted on Rich's blog, I also understand the desire to have an "invitation only' site. I would love to see a forum where non-professionals would at least be able to read the posts and try to learn. I consider myself to be an amateur according to the definition below.

From the Latin "amator:" lover, devoted friend, devotee, enthusiastic pursuer of an objective.

I like the name "Art and Analysis" for whatever that's worth.


Dave said...

Graydon. If you wish to take up my offer to set up a forum, then you need to contact me, as there are some issues we need to discuss and clarify.

If you are setting up a forum yourself, or have someone else to do it for you, then carry on...

Michael said...

Art and Reason is good. I hope this comes together as you have described it.

graydon said...

Amateurs will be welcome as long as they ask intelligent questions and offer their discoveries. However, I have had trouble with novices posing as professionals at other internet forums, and then being really vocal, without much sound advice. The real criteria will be reason. If something works, then all will consider it and likely adopt it, no matter if the idea came from a professional or an amateur.

Dave said...

I withdraw my offer to set up a forum.

Enzie Shahmiri - Artist said...

Since the offer to create a forum was withdrawn by Dave, I wanted to mention that I think the blog format works nicely for the following reasons:

1. Control of posts/layout and topics
By controlling posts through a comment drop box, the actual topic does not get cluttered through remarks that are unrelated and is easier to follow.
Contributions that enhance the discussed topic can be added to the post by the moderator (see #4)
2. Archiving
Topics get archived automatically by title and date. But can be also be listed in alphabetical order
3. Easy upload of images
This resizing requirement on many forums makes it rather cumbersome
4. Blogs are free
Any members who wishes to do so can create their own blog. Write a contributing topic , uploaded images, copy/paste and send it to the author of the main blog
5. Privacy settings
The blog can be by invitation only. I actually like this idea although it took me a while to become part of this group. If a “Newby” is really serious about being a member, they will pursue membership and find someone who will do the intro and get them in.

6. Blogs can be expanded
I have an “Orientalist “ site where I discuss all sorts of things related to the Orientalists. To keep things organizes I then link these posts to their appropriate (new blog). In other words anything related to Artist A goes to blog A, anything related to Artist B goes to Blog B
By keeping the layout of the page the same it is a seemless back and forth.

To see how this could work go to my first blog then look under Orientalist Gallery on the right Columns under Links

Just some ideas!

graydon said...

Why did you withdraw your offer Dave? We can surely set up our own, but I find your sudden change of heart strange.

marsha said...

Enzie, your blog is very well done,but doesn't this require a lot of your time?

The biggest problem for me is finding the newest comment on a topic set up to be an ongoing investigation here at Rational Color and not being able to post a visable photo in the comments section.

Perhaps if there is a way to set the blog up with newest comments first or at least a marker of some sort - bold type/color/flashing icon or something to indicate that there is something new to study/comment on, then that might help.

However, Graydon's Intention and the numbers of people wanting to actually participate and not just read or send kudos,seems to indicate a less cumbersome and perhaps more legitimate mode of presentation.

Beth, I agree with your suggestion. In this day and age, no matter how most of us would LIKE to work, photos and computers are tools that many use and should to be dealt with.

Graydon, in case you didn't see my comment in the google discussions, I like Art and Reason.

Also, thank you very much for the link to Critical Thinking.

Dave said...

Graydon - I am sending a response to yourself and Richard by email - perhaps we can still make this work?


linesend said...

Art and Reason can cover quite a bit. I am one who reads more than types as quite often someone else has asked "my" question or some such and I feel litle need to clutter things up with "me, too's!", such as I agree with Marsha's comments on finding where new comments are.

Having a "new posts" feature would be good. While some of the confusion now comes from not knowing where of several places to look, perhaps some comes from being unfamiliar with the formats.

That said, there is already a lot here to read and think about.

Shenandoah said...

While I’m a novice and sympathize with your plight and understand perfectly if you choose to go by invitation only, I now, thanks to Graydon, have a cluster of greyscale painted wooden blocks along with other blocks awaiting to be painted in different chroma colors sitting all over my dining room table like diminutive sentinels, along with a newly purchased Munsell Student book.

Oh, please don’t leave me like this! This community gives me something to aspire to, and I would be so grateful if I were allowed to at least read posts.

graydon said...

Any serious student will be welcome, of course. Marsha is an example of the most serious and dedicated student. She has contributed so much.

I also need suggestions for each category.

Color will continue
Art History
Art Criticism

There are no places online where an art critic can be held accountable.

And often, with art history, non painters make huge mistakes when writing about technique. For example, my glazing technique has been mentioned in articles. They still do it despite the fact that I don't glaze. I even told one directly " I don't glaze." Well, they wrote the I did anyway

ewschott said...

I think art history can be just as it says.

I personally, like I have any right too! HA! go through museums wherever I am and actually go around and grade paintings. We could discuss the good and bad. The Pushkin exhibit that was touring had some of the worst work I have ever seen. Lots of "F's".

This include Ingres "Virgin with Chalice" I just stood there and every time some came up just oohing and ahhing I would look at them and say "excuse me, whose arm is that?" It was rude of me to do this but I couldn't help myself.

Then there Chavannes "The Poor Fisherman" that should give us all hope, it is the worst painting I have ever seen. It looks like there is a dead baby on the grass and he tried to use mud faces- he did this really well because all they were was mud, not even a suggestion of a face. I did a google of it when I got home (I saw this show in Atlanta) and it is changed but not any better.

When I was about through the exhibit one of the guards approached me and "said mam, I really thing I have to tell you what a lady said last week to me" I said OK, she said "Well it looks like Moscow sent us all their crap." LOL.

Well this might be good for the critique section too unless you think it might be a good place to actually show critics articles with the piece they are discussing. But even better critic's of things we have seen as above.

marsha said...

Graydon, what are you asking for?

Different ways to describe these subjects...or things to include as sub- catagories like 'on the easel' 'cafe...' or did I mis-understand?

I do hope you'll have a place for technique, but perhaps that will be in the Procedures area...not just the what and how's, but the why's.(and why's in the materials section,too.)

Also, a place for our own work to receive legitimate critique, separate from the critique of the so called Critics/gallery shows/museums - and yes, they should be held accountable!

marsha said...

Graydon,for what it's worth and the more I mull this over, I think the Title should include Critical Thinking.

Art and Reason is a great title (I like it best) if all paricipants 'get' it. But for those new to the concept of Critical Thinking and actually applying it to the arts, we might more easily use these concepts in other areas of their lives - seeing this title everytime we log on.

It also might curtail the rudeness and stupidity that crops up in us humans from time to time.

Enzie Shahmiri said...


Thanks. The initial set up took some time, but I have the template now and can send it.

It is really easy to format and make additions to. What I like is having three columns and there are tons of widgets out there that can address pretty much any format requirement.

Look here this would work for quick on-line chat

lets see if I the book I'am sending comes through...

I don't know if there is a way to edit comments though...

Enzie Shahmiri said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Enzie said...

Ahh, it worked as long as you use the link promt. I tried typing the command in, but it shows up as a link again. If you want the prompt email me.

Paul Marshall said...


I think Art and Reason is a great name for an art forum. Rational, evidence-supported discussion of art would be a welcome alternative to the arbitrary b.s. that is slung on other forums. Not to meantion that *reason* is the antiseptic that is needed to clean up the nihilistic irrationality of the art world in general.

Which leads me to beg:

Is there anyway I could weasel an invitation to the forum? If so, how would I go about it?

I'm a fledgling artist and before Rob had his meltdown (I haven't posted since) Ebauche's posts on the Cennini Forum were a life-saving fount of information -- from Bargue; to Hal Reed's anatomy videos; to Munsell. I've missed you guys and I'm glad I finally found you again.

All the best,



I'm from Idaho, but I just got back from a vacation to New York, Boston and Washington ... and a short jot to New Britain. Your monsterpeice was one of, if not *the* highlight of the vacation. It's stunning. To hell with the New York Times et. al! It sucks, but you know you're on the right track when all these repugnant people are throwing bombs at you. They hate you because you're so damn good and thus you're an affront to their "crapulence" -- it's envy to the nth degree. Please keep on making the piss-ants hate you!

biki said...

i am interested. would i be accepted.?

Breid said...


I'd love to participate, but no one knows me -not because I'm not friendly, but mostly because I don't feel I have much to offer on the most part (except maybe commenting on the white text on black):)

Will you be setting up Art and Reason and Rational Color so they can't be viewed at all or is it just that you can't leave comments?


Paul F said...

I have a suggestion for a category on the forum:


As many of you know I've been training myself for a while now, and have tried to evolve some exercises for myself. Some have been very useful and resulted in small jumps forward in understanding, some have been worse than useless and were, frankly, a waste of time.

Having a collection of tried and tested exercises with particular goals in mind for each one, all in one place, would be of immense use to people I think.

Examples might be: Setting up the chroma string palette, the colour wheel, neutral value cubes and spheres, high chroma cubes and spheres, finding a local with a Munsell chip, mixing the colours of chips.

It's good to talk about stuff, but it's the practical side where the learning really happens. I'd be happy to help with managing such section, putting together the posts with step by step pics etc, if people thought it would be a good idea.

marsha said...

Excellent idea, Paul!

You and I both (and of course others) know that DOING the work is where the true knowledge begins to grow and become useful.

graydon said...

Sure Paul, I will let you help. Maybe under the heading "Practical" Just a thought.

Scott said...

Let's call it "A.R.T."

Applied Rational Thought