Friday, October 12, 2007

Manganese Blue I am not crazy. I hit the highest chromas on both 7.5B 5/10 and 10B 5/12. I didn't do 5B or 2.5BG but can if anyone really wants me to. The 10B was the one that gave me the real trouble 2 summers ago. I photographed them here in 4 different light sources. I white balanced for each enviornment, and only cropped and adjusted contrast and brightness in photoshop. My recipies for the two are:

10B 5/12:
2 parts Manganese Blue (OH)
1 part zinc white (Utrecht) (or nanowhites-SP)
1 part Windsor Blue Green Shade (WN)

7.5B 5/10:
2 Parts Manganese Blue (OH)
1 part zinc white (Utrecht) (or nanowhites-SP)
1/3 part Windsor Blue Green Shade (WN)
1 part Turq. Blue (Holbein) [It is a form of PB35 but I found very very helpful when I did my color wheel the first time and for hitting all the high chromas around the BG range]


graydon said...

PB35 is a Pthalo, right Neal? Otherwise I would like someone to confirm this and do the other blue hues. But great, perhaps the mystery is solved.

graydon said...

In photograph three you seem to nail it. In the last one, the chroma of /12 seems a bit too dull in the photo.

So, lets get confirmation. Neal likes to drink double espressos from Starbucks : )

nystudios said...

PB35 is Cerulean Blue, a type of cobalt stannate if I remember correctly. Normally Cerulean Blue isn't really chromatic, but his version by Holbein is good.

And I have switched in honor of my teacher to Espresso Martinis. Of course, I am writing this from Starbucks. :)

ewschott said...

Sorry Neal for jumping in here, but I wanted to grab a non buried post and since it's about geting your blue mixed correctly...

My guestion is pretty easy, I have recieved three replacements of the 5Y chips. So now I have so many repeated copies.

The 5Y 8/4 and 5y 8/6 are driving me crazy, when I put them one way it looks right when they are on the white, When I put it on the chart it looks questionable. I can't remember if I had this issue with other Hues. Hummm

Also, this may be a silly question - for the big, full book, which I can't afford - can you get a used one.

I have also done the mixed charts from Schmid's "Alla Prima", forever ago and do not know how these would match up? I think this might have been mentioned some where but I can't remember.

Thanks, Beth

nystudios said...

I just took a look to see if there were any used munsell books available. There are but the preponderance are from 1929-1970, and they all cost more than the new one.

I don't understand if you are saying that the chip doesn't look right on the page our your paint match doesn't look right. Here are some things that might be causing you confusion. (I am working with the assumption that you only have the student version)

1. There is a vast difference between a mat chip and a glossy one as reading the student book describes fully.
2. You might have put the chip in the wrong place when you glued them in.
3. Your mix may just be slightly off.
4. Check the chip/paint in multiple light sources. A cloudy day is best. A yellow chip in a yellow incandescent light will appear right, but moving that same mixture under a blue florescent will look really off.

nystudios said...

Really I do understand that a lot of people view getting the munsell book as a hardship. For me, I just don't understand it. It is $500, but I jumped at the chance to get one while a student (with no student discount- I didn't know about it).

It will help everyone here so much, I just don't understand. It will help more than going to any painting workshop, and those cost way more.

As Richard stated so eloquently, he has saved more time, painted more pictures, and saved money in previously wasted paint.

I just don't understand why anyone wouldn't jump at the chance to paint better. Hell, I could not eat for a month...I could stand to use a few pounds anyway. :)

nystudios said...

err...loose a few pounds.

ewschott said...

Neal, I just lost my part time job, when I had it - we decided to refinish our pool - it's gunite, plus we have to do all the tile - you can guess the cost.

Then we had to buy a new car and since we are a commisioned based family I paid 1/2 the cost up front.

Here's the biggie... 49,000.00 in tution a year, next year it will be over 70,000.00's - that's the problem, so I can be "Queenie for a Day!" - every one here is likely to young to remember this show - so right now money is hard... plus when I go visit Gwen in Savannah, I always have to stop at the Biltmore to see an incredible Zorn, they actually put it inbetween the two worst Sargents, but they have some wonderful ones too!

Anyway... these chips are the ones from the student book (1st) one. So they are matt and not mixed/shinny. I'm thinking like a Color Aid paper.

When I put them on the white paper to work with all of them, I think I had them correct.

Then when I built the formation - rubber cemented in the book, those two looked wrong - so I keep taking them off and changing them, but in the book they were so different from being on the white paper, that I can't figure out what is right, I wish I could post a picture here, but that would be dead on. Does that make sense?

Also what is the Large Book?
Is it more exercises and hue chips that are removable? Marsha's color wheel in the picture looks just like the chips, it's incredible, I can't believe they are mixed paint.

The other thing I still don't understand is how this would apply to someone like Liberace's palette?

Boy I'm sorry I'm dumping on you, especially my financial woes! So what's new - right! :)

Thanks, Beth

nystudios said...

Really I do understand, especially about tuition. Beth really it makes a world of difference. Here is an example:

In my head painting class, the model had a blue drapery hung behind her blond hair. So I got out my blue chips and found out what the exact local of the drapery was. It turns out to be 5PB 5/4. I know because it is in a 3/4 light that the value 5 local will appear nearly as a 7 in the average lights, a 4.5 in the average halftones, and nearly at 2 in the average darks. So guess what I am doing today? I am tubing a string consisting of 5PB 9/2 and 5PB 8-2/4. I could just mix up the piles I need, but I found it better to just mix up and tube the strings. You never know when you might need this next.

How would I be able to mix exactly the drapery without this book? Guess??? But, that isn't the best part, say I wanted to make this a 5BG instead because of the color of her skin being 5YR the complement would be 5BG. Because I have the chips I could mix up the same string in chroma 4 for 5BG instead. Or, I could bump up the chroma, or drop it and have complete control.

Her hair being blond, I could change the back ground to 5P if the hair was the focal point, and therefore create a complementary color scheme to match her hair. It is amazing what you can do with the book.

There isn't anything in the big book but chips. But, you are only limited by your observation and creativity.

I hope that helps.

ewschott said...

Neal, see when I read your post about the model, it sounds like science to me vs. art, doesn't it become mechancical and tedious?

I think I am going to start a post about this, since I am very un educated in this theory/system. I am going to grab your quote but will not put down your name since I am not sure if it's OK with you...


nystudios said...

You crack me up. :)

Yeah, it is OK, but it is funny everyone here can read it anyway. :)

I will read your other post, but why shouldn't it be like science? After all ART is applied optics, chemistry, anatomy, biology, botany, statics, dynamics, strength of materials, sociology, psychology, mathmatics, etc.

I absolutely refuse to accept the, "I just feel my paintings" bullshit. Meissonier painted some of the best paintings ever, and he was very very scientific in his approach.

graydon said...


Post Liberace's palette again and we can dissect it in an ordered way. It might be a good thread. All will be respectful. Liberace is a fantastic artist. But perhaps, in doing so, you can see that it isn't a mystical combination of paints, but something sound. Also, by understanding it, you can modify it when you need to.

Gunzorro said...

As has been said before -- the bad thing about these blogs is that it is hard to find the thread you originally posted on.
I'm responding to a question Graydon asked me a few days ago in regard to my remarks about Manganese Blue.
Sorry I can't be more precise about his question of my statement.
Essentially, I said that I didn't care for Mang Blue due to its poor tinting strength.
I just checked my collection, and the only two Mang Blue I have are Blockx and OH. OH is by far the stronger in opacity and tinting strength of the two, but still a weak tinter compared to other colors. The OH has a semi-matte satin finish, the Blockx is more of a semi-gloss satin. Blockx is far more vivid or brilliant chroma than the OH, which looks a bit dull in comparison. The Blockx is made with poppy and this is no doubt the reason for its brilliance.
I have gotten rid of all my other brands of Mang Blue, and although these two were the finest examples of this pigment, I could still easily live without either.
Like Cobalt Violet, this color promises much as it comes out of the tube, only to disappoint when mixed or thinned.
But if you can use it -- more power to you! ;)

Scott said...

Let's call it "A.R.T."

Applied Rational Thought


graydon said...

Thankyou Jim. Lets see if Neal can find the Blockx. Does it say what pigments are used?

Like I said, I only use this for one chroma. But if you need to match the Munsell notation for this certain blue, it is essential. Otherwise, a combo of ultramarine and pthalo is perfect.


Gunzorro said...

Blockx is straight Mang Blue pigment.