Monday, October 15, 2007

5P 4/12

Here's my 5P 4/12 chip.

I got out that little tube of Rembrandt Perm. Violet and matched the Munsell chip again - just to make sure. Don't know if you can see the blob of paint on the Munsell chip - but it is there. (Neglected to include that Titanium was used to see the full chroma.)

(This color is very difficult to photograph - the photo is straight from the camera - no adjusting in photoshop.)

I'd be glad to donate the photos of all my Munsell work to the new Forum if Graydon and Rich feel it would be helpful. I'll wait til I hear from one of them, or their computer wizard on where/what to send.

I re-iterate what Paul and others have said. Reading and looking at pretty pictures is entertaining, but not very useful unless you are doing the work as well. And then it's a guideline - something to test on your own.

Also, someone thought of skipping the Student Book and going straight for the 'formulas' in the Big Book. There are NO FORMULAS in the Big Book (only Munsell notations)! You still must analyze and mix up what you think will match the chip. If it's not right then you must adjust - and sometimes it's only a tiny bit of an adjustment, but makes all the difference.

Graydon's already given us a list of paints that will hit 99% of those chips. Then it's just a question of doing the work.
Hang in there to everyone working on this - it gets easier!


Breid said...

Marsha, Firstly, thank you very much for addressing my question -I very much appreciate it.

I suppose "formula" was the wrong word, rather what I meant was that most people seem to be using the Big Book as an overall painting colour reference/guide, unlike the Student Book which seems to concentrate only on exercises. Don't get me wrong, I realize that the training is incredibly important and necessary, I just wondered if you could do the same exercises with the Big Book, plus you'd also have the added bonus of being able to use it as a reference/guide as well.

Thanks again for your reply.

Michael said...

marsha said: "Graydon's already given us a list of paints that will hit 99% of those chips. Then it's just a question of doing the work. Hang in there to everyone working on this - it gets easier!"

Is this list available to everyone interested or is it something only shared with a select few?

ewschott said...

Marsha, I was wondering too if the list of makers is something we can link to our put up as a pdf?

ewschott said...

Marsha, I forgot to say, that is one purty color!

painterdog said...

buy the student book. It's about $60. If your lucky you can find one on Amazon for 30.

You learn a lot from just putting the chips in the charts.

The Big book has a big price, $600.

The only thing I am finding frustrating is the student book only goes up to /8 or /10 in the chroma's for the blues PB's.

The highest is 5R 4/14.
5YR 7/12

Is there any other color that will give you this Purple? Is it the brand or the type of Violet?
It looks like Cobalt Violet but hard to tell.

nystudios said...

I don't know what others think, but I really feel that the student book is essential. You will not understand what you are working with if you just get the big book.

It is like going to the paint section in the hardware store where they have all the paint chips. Sooo what???

What you get from a thorough reading of the student book is how color works, from start to finish. You'll learn:

-The dimension of color: Hue, Value, Chroma
-Munsell Notation
-Color solids, gamuts, and computer palettes
-color in the Renaissance, impressionist and post-impressionist eras, and the electronic era
-The visible and invisible attributes of color
-Glossy vs. Matte colors
-Physiology of the eye and color vision, color perception, and color in the world
-Color anomalies, preference, and emotional response
-Additive color mixture: Mixing light
-Subtractive color mixture: Mixing paints
-Relationships among colors
-Combining colors
-Color in designed products, installations, and printing

None of this is covered in the big book. But, after you read and understand all this you appreciation of what the big book can help you do, coupled with the exercises that Graydon has developed will aid you in your quest to conquer color.

nystudios said...

Paints that give the highest chromas

On the outer limits of chroma, those with the Munsell notation of /12 or greater, the chemistry becomes critical. For some hues, there are several options, for others like the purple-blues, there are few choices. The following list of colors will hit almost everything within the range of paint, including the highest chromas.

Titanium White,
Ivory Black
Burnt Umber
Alizarin Crimson (lightfast variety)
Perelyn Red
Napthol Red
Cadmium Orange (or Mono Orange)
Cadmium Lemon (or Hansa Yellow Light )
Phthalo Green (Yellow Shade helps a bit)
Phthalo Blue
Ultramarine Blue
Manganese Blue genuine (this helps a bit on one chip: Thank you Neal)
Manganese Purple
Diox Purple
Quinacridone Violet (the pinker one...might be labeled Maroon)
Quiacridone Rose.
Quinacridone Red

This list covers almost all of the extremes...and most (98 percent) hues can be made by these mixtures without loss in chroma. They are not, however, the most convenient. For example, its easier to mix flesh tones with earth colors like yellow ochre and burnt sienna.

Michael said...


Are you addressing my question? If so, have you determined which brand to use for certain colors?

If not, I found this blog just a few days ago and do not know the history. I don't know whether someone not on that list of contributors is allowed to ask a question here. If the option to limit comments to invited guests has not been selected by the administrator is this available to everyone?


painterdog said...

Besides putting the charts together
all that Neil said as well.

I have had the student book for a while and I have found it a great tool. I can't afford the big book at the moment, for all who want to get this going buy the student first. Now there are 2 endorsements...

It's on Amazon, The New Munsell Student Color Set for 64.60 + shipping.

graydon said...

The brands may or may not be critical. We have found three that seem to be: Well Marsha and Jim have.

1 Blockx Manganese Blue. Jim has found this more chromatic than Old Holland.

2. Vasari Ivory Black. Marsh found that this is the darket black at value .5.

3. Rembrandt Perm. Violet. looks like it hits those troublesome /12 chromas.

However, its the chemistry that matters. Single pigments are better than mixtures. Organics are usually better than mineral colors.

graydon said...

That is, organics are usually higher in chroma than mineral colors.

Gunzorro said...

The one caution on the Blockx Mang Blue -- it is not as strong as the OH for tinting. This may or may not be an issue when mixing. Someone like Neal would be good to evaluate the difference. OH is very good.

Marsha -- have you tried Puro Carbon Black, or any of the others (carbon or lamp black)? I've found them to have the most intense "black" with the least reflection, at least to the eye. Others nearly as dark as the Puro are Williamsburg Intense Black and OH Schev Intense Black, all made from carbon soot.

I'm sorry to be splitting hairs here, but just thought the info might have some interest or value. (pun intended) ;)

graydon said...

Jim. For the blue, here, we are just looking for the chroma. And for black, the value. Although a permanent, non oily, black is great for painting. I use Williamsburg Black Roman Earth for general work.

Marsha, do you know about Wlmsb. Intense Black?

Poor Marsha is our new guineau pig. : )

painterdog said...

Rembrandt Perm. Violet comes in three types, Permanent Violet Medium, Permanent Red Violet, and Permanent Blue Violet.

Not sure which is being used but it looks like Violet Medium.

ewschott said...

I couldn't imagine starting with anything but the student book, and you lucky souls that got to visit with Graydon. This certainly can get a bit confusing... old habits are hard to break... or should I say, it's hard to teach an old, beautiful woman new tricks! HA!

marsha said...

Sorry the photo you can just make out the +++553 Series 3 on the tube. (I just did a search and can't find this anywhere! Wouldn't you know it- they stop making the one that works!)

However, I think PainterDog may be right - it's close to the Permanent Blue Violet though its number is 568.

I can only test the paints I have right now, but am making a list of suggested brands, so when I can buy more paint, I'll have a better idea of what to choose instead of just going in 'color blind.'

Thanks for everyone's input.

I hope that eventually, there will be a list of convenient paint colors/brands to have on hand, as well as, the list to obtain high Chroma.

nystudios said...

I checked today at the art store about Rembrandt Violet Red (They were out of the other two) and it is PV19 or Quinacridone Violet.

By the way I think that this site should be added to our list of favorites:

ewschott said...


Sorry, but for lack of a better comparison, is that kind of phallic shape the actual chip from the book, or is it the square one you painted?

Do the chips come in a plastic sleeve to protect them?